Skin Horse

By Shaenon K. Garrity & Jeffrey C. Wells
By Shaenon K. Garrity & Jeffrey C. Wells
Color by Pancha Diaz
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2021-05-14
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2021-05-14

by shaenon on May 14, 2021 at 12:01 am
Chapter: Off to the Fair
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Discussion (51) ¬

  1. Jim
    May 14, 2021, 12:05 am | # | Reply

    ivegotabadfeelingaboutthis.gif

  2. awgiedawgie
    May 14, 2021, 12:08 am | # | Reply

    I prefer the version from Tango & Cash: “Bad Cop, Worse Cop.”

    • Seph
      May 14, 2021, 1:25 am | # | Reply

      What would you say to good cop, dadaist cop? https://xkcd.com/1018/

      • Daibhid C
        May 14, 2021, 7:42 am | # | Reply

        The “Nice cop, nicer cop” sketch from the Scottish comedy show Absolutely doesn’t appear to be on YouTube, unfortunately.

        • awgiedawgie
          May 14, 2021, 7:58 am | # | Reply

          Maybe not, but this is:

          • Robert Nowall
            May 14, 2021, 9:26 am | #

            Well, I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition. (Check out the Complete Monty Python Blu-Ray rerelease—looks better than it did back in the day, and has a bunch of cut naughty bits, some of which were extremely naughty.)

  3. Towering Barbarian
    May 14, 2021, 12:11 am | # | Reply

    By “Daughter of the Air” standards shouldn’t all the dupes have rights? o_O

    • David B Huber
      May 14, 2021, 12:27 am | # | Reply

      An excellent point! From which we can deduce these dupes are too limited to be fully sentient. Or as Nick put it, “Just game code”.

      Bubbles was just a water-cooler AI but she is sentient. This Baron’ believed himself to be the Real McCoy but was unable to grasp true sentience when forced to reach for it.

      At what point does an NPC become an AI? A wooden puppet a real boy? A Skin Horse a gallant steed? A beloved character real…

      • Robert Nowall
        May 14, 2021, 5:39 am | # | Reply

        Reminds me of the experiments on plants, proving they have feelings and senses and all that. Went along fine until somebody duplicated the results with yogurt.

        • nebulousrikulau
          May 14, 2021, 6:06 am | # | Reply

          But of course yogurt is fully sentient.

          They even have a culture.

          • BRGR
            May 14, 2021, 6:17 am | #

            Hear, hear!

          • jdreyfuss
            May 14, 2021, 9:20 am | #

            /rimshot

          • Andy4Hire
            May 14, 2021, 8:07 pm | #

            I salute you, nebulousrikulau.

        • davidbreslin101
          May 14, 2021, 6:00 pm | # | Reply

          Then there was that dead salmon that, according to fMRI machine data, had strong opinions about pictures of humans it was shown….

      • BRGR
        May 14, 2021, 6:15 am | # | Reply

        Game code is usually strictly rule-based behaviour.
        AI is defined by the ability to learn.
        Sentience is the ability to feel. Functionally, all systems have the ability to feel (in some way), though not all are able to reflect on it.

        More formally, game code is a function f such that for any input O, f injectively maps to an output I. AI is a function p such that for any tuples (x,y) where x is an element of O and y is an element of I, the output of p approaches a relation f between the x and y of all tuples (x,y).

        It is trivial to write a program that claims to be self-aware, but like most people is unable to prove it.

      • Nick Alcock
        May 14, 2021, 7:08 am | # | Reply

        One possible alternative is that they are all just alternate bodies for Baron, sharing one mind — but I don’t think so. Baron would not want to be conscious of being a go-go dancer, and these Barons seem to think they are extinguished when they flicker out — and a massively multistreamed consciousness… well, we’ve met some of those and Baron isn’t remotely green. I don’t know if they can assimilate AIs or live in virtual reality at all, but I doubt it. They’re kinda *biological*.

      • jdreyfuss
        May 14, 2021, 9:25 am | # | Reply

        Something that feels pain has the right not to be treated cruelly. Something that is self-aware has the right not to be slaughtered, even humanely. Something that is sapient has the right not to be property.

        The dupes are, at best, self-aware, so they don’t have the rights that a fully sapient being would have but they do have the right not to be treated the way Nick and Lovelace are treating them.

        • awgiedawgie
          May 14, 2021, 1:16 pm | # | Reply

          But are they self-aware? Or are they merely providing the responses that they were programmed to give?

          Nick did mention that this one was nothing but gaming code. That doesn’t sound very self-aware to me.

        • D. Walker
          May 14, 2021, 4:27 pm | # | Reply

          “Something that is self-aware has the right not to be slaughtered, even humanely.”

          Nature seems to have missed the memo on that one.

          Also, how does one define or measure “self-aware”? There’s no real consensus based on any objective, verifiable measures. Everyone draws the line somewhere different – and some creatures, like plants, might very well be self aware, we just aren’t able to verify that because they can’t communicate it to us in a way we recognize.

          There’s no real workable solution to the problem of needing to consume other life to persist in our own. No matter how enlightened you think your own views are, someone else can find fault with them by simply drawing the line on “self-awareness” in a different place.

          Humane slaughter is already a step up from nature. Our domesticated animals in nature would be routinely killed by predators in awful, traumatic ways. We humans ourselves were one of those predators for many millennia. Domestication transformed the chosen species, giving them a far kinder fate than they would have enjoyed naturally.

          It may seem like a moral imperative to end domestication, but that possibility requires human advances that do not yet exist. We need certain key technologies like vat grown meats, and we need enough overall economic prosperity that eliminates scarcity enough that we no longer have to rely on animals for their products.

          And even then… what happens to, say, cows, once they are no longer economically productive to us? They have no natural niche to return to. There is nowhere for them to go. They are dependent on humanity for survival, but what happens once we no longer depend on them?

          Once we have all the artificial meat, leather, etc, we could want… what do you imagine is going to happen to all the cows in the world? They’ll be largely killed off, because they’re not longer economical to keep around. They’re going to go from being one of the most numerous quadrupeds on the planet with some of the best quality of life, to being almost non-existent and kept only by the wealthy, zoos, etc.

          Is that price acceptable? Is that worth it to avoid their being humanely slaughtered? Who can say? Not them, sadly.

        • Regret
          May 14, 2021, 5:03 pm | # | Reply

          To me the main reason not to be cruel to things that can feel pain is because it damages the torturer.

          • D. Walker
            May 14, 2021, 9:05 pm | #

            Agreed. I see little real problem with killing and eating animals, so long as they have a good life and a good death.

          • awgiedawgie
            May 14, 2021, 9:09 pm | #

            Seems to me that if someone is comfortable with being the torturer in the first place, they were already pretty damaged.

          • David B Huber
            May 14, 2021, 10:39 pm | #

            Which would apply even in VR.

        • davidbreslin101
          May 14, 2021, 6:02 pm | # | Reply

          This always bugs me about Star Wars battledroids. They’re sentient enough to have comic dialogue, but everyone squashes the poor bastards like mosquitos.

          • David B Huber
            May 14, 2021, 11:52 pm | #

            I agree. I’ve always felt the defining characteristic of intelligence is a sense of humor.

      • Danny in Canada
        May 14, 2021, 11:14 am | # | Reply

        I’m reminded of Yahtzee Croshaw’s novel “Mogworld”.

        It’s not a spoiler to say that the protagonist is an NPC in an MMO – that information is on the back cover. But what’s truly interesting is what happens to him as he learns what this all means.

    • Canadian Mad Scientist
      May 14, 2021, 2:56 pm | # | Reply

      I figure they’re just non-sentient programs. More advanced than Siri and so on, but basically a chatbot hooked up to a database. I’m guessing that’s why this one crashed: he was designed to fill a role (decoy, probably) and the current situation is outside of that role. Given an AI, it probably would be possible to derive a simpler program that approximates its behaviour without giving rise to any sort of consciousness, especially if for a limited range of situations.

      Definitely a disturbing image, though. I don’t think this “Baron” IS sentient, but he does LOOK sentient…

      We know Nick is willing to die rather than kill. He has been from the beginning, which is the main reason I’ve liked him from his first storyline. He was a foul-mouthed jerk most of the time, but also a man of deeply held moral convictions in other ways. We’ve also always known that non-sentient code doesn’t count; it may look violent, but nobody gets hurt. More recently, we’ve seen that he’s willing to use nonlethal force in order to save lives, like when he fired on the Biomass or wrestled with the AI appliances. I think we’re going to see whether he’ll compromise his principles if he thinks it’s necessary to save Ginny.

  4. David B Huber
    May 14, 2021, 12:12 am | # | Reply

    I must say, the existential terror exhibited by Baron’ in the first panel makes me cringe!

    Poor little guy…

    (yes, I remember I was screaming for his head on a pike a couple of strips ago)

  5. Tiff Hudson
    May 14, 2021, 12:19 am | # | Reply

    Suddenly I’m reminded of the “Bad Cop, Worse Cop” scene from Tango and Cash.

    • awgiedawgie
      May 14, 2021, 12:31 am | # | Reply

      Are you reminded because of my earlier comment above, perhaps?

      • Tiff Hudson
        May 14, 2021, 8:58 am | # | Reply

        Oddly enough, no. It was late (I’m on the east coast) and I didn’t even read the comments before posting, which isn’t typical.

        • awgiedawgie
          May 14, 2021, 1:20 pm | # | Reply

          I can relate. I’m in the same time zone.

  6. Frank
    May 14, 2021, 12:44 am | # | Reply

    Does not compute

  7. Robert Nowall
    May 14, 2021, 5:41 am | # | Reply

    Right now, stuck in this casino, they’re all dupes.

  8. Duth Olec
    May 14, 2021, 9:03 am | # | Reply

    Maybe they should keep breaking Barons. The one that respawns is the real one! That sounds like a perfectly reasonable method of going about doing things!!

  9. Jim Janney
    May 14, 2021, 9:07 am | # | Reply

    There is no real Baron, only copies. It explains so much.

  10. maarvarq
    May 14, 2021, 9:10 am | # | Reply

    Lovelace, dear one, you could never be just OK!

  11. Shadowmehr
    May 14, 2021, 1:20 pm | # | Reply

    Dear me, the don-Baron seems to have vanished in a puff of logic!

    • awgiedawgie
      May 14, 2021, 1:22 pm | # | Reply

      Well, that was easy. Now, to prove that black is white…

      • Andy4Hire
        May 14, 2021, 8:10 pm | # | Reply

        Be careful around zebra crossings!

        • David B Huber
          May 14, 2021, 10:20 pm | # | Reply

          I found it fascinating that zebra stripes apparently disrupt the depth perception of many biting insects, causing them to try and land above the surface and fall.

  12. georgethearchon
    May 14, 2021, 1:24 pm | # | Reply

    So, admittedly my theories are usually terrible, but I’m guessing that Baron’s sensors were online enough for him to see Ginny be taken, and then on the assumption that the server would be next, he immediately but all connections and fled as far and as deep into his part of the virtual space as he could in panic, leaving decoys as he went?

    That would also mean that he assumes that anyone looking for him would either be A-Sig, or someone already suborned by them, and is somewhere curled in an (admittedly very cute) ball.

    (It seems kinda in character for him.)

    Of course, if the story decided to give our protagonists a break, he might just’ve left so quickly that his body’s still recording what happened after he went and hid.

    But again, I’m the one who puts the ‘Wild’ into WMG.
    Also the ‘Guessing’ part – and maybe the ‘Mass’, come to think of it.

    I do look forward to seeing how completely off the mark I am, though.

    • awgiedawgie
      May 14, 2021, 8:58 pm | # | Reply

      While it remains to be seen whether your theory is indeed terrible, it does make a bit of sense. So don’t count yourself out just yet.

      • georgethearchon
        May 15, 2021, 7:54 am | # | Reply

        Will, there are web comic fora where my making a guess pretty much guarantees that’s not what’s going to happen. I’m at peacevery cool with that – I enjoyed the stories (and lore) that are meaty enough to support the hypothesising, but still complex enough for me to be surprised (and delighted) – and boy do our creators here bring the story and the world to do that.

      • georgethearchon
        May 15, 2021, 7:56 am | # | Reply

        But thank you for the vote of support. 🙂

  13. georgethearchon
    May 14, 2021, 1:26 pm | # | Reply

    (Sighs – ‘_cut_ all connections:, not ‘but’)

  14. georgethearchon
    May 14, 2021, 1:27 pm | # | Reply

    typos happne, and all that.

  15. tuiteyfruity
    May 14, 2021, 3:01 pm | # | Reply

    I did not see that coming i must say

  16. davidbreslin101
    May 14, 2021, 6:03 pm | # | Reply

    Now, who’s behind the wall of monitors?

    • Frank
      May 14, 2021, 8:36 pm | # | Reply

      Pay no attention to the man behind the monitors!

  17. Kyle
    May 14, 2021, 6:20 pm | # | Reply

    Huh. Wonder if Aimee is actually Aimee. She’s been especially enthusiastic about all this. I had thought it was because she’s a whimsy princess who treasures and supports her friends, but it could also be because Baron is taking the reins for a little bit while the real Aimee does something else for a while.

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