I agree completely Jude. mustachio is in an infinite loop right now, which is pretty much catatonia If you are a Ferro American. if Tip Is in fact going mad This will not end well.
A bit off-topic, but as Mustachio struggles to avoid a Star Trek robot-type meltdown, I find myself wondering what it would be like to be in his metaphorical shoes: to know that your self-awareness is sustained by structures (gears, steam, wax cylinders, etc.) that by any _non-mad_ science shouldn’t be anywhere near capable of doing so. I do, for his sake, hope the existential creepy-crawlies are beyond his capabilities.
@BMunro: He probably finds himself wondering what it would be like to be in your metaphorical shoes: to know that your self-awareness is sustained by structures (electricity, fat, blood, etc.) that by any _non-mad_ science shouldn’t be anywhere near capable of doing so (wait, when did “any _non-mad_ science” become capable of even explaining self-awareness, let alone sustain it?)
Bad analogy. The brain is a fantastically complex object, as anyone with even a smattering of either mad or regular science should be aware of. And really, 1850s hardware shouldn’t be able to support basic cognition, let alone self-awareness.
(Of course, it’s quite possible Mustachio is actually a Chinese Room. And perhaps you are, too. 🙂 )
I don’t think you get the point. No matter how complex it is, as far as regular science can tell, a structure made of what your brain is made of shouldn’t be able to support basic cognition, let alone self-awareness either.
Or perhaps you did not get my initial point: I am not arguing that the problem is a brain made of metal rather than meat, but that you can’t build a set of steam-propelled gears, levers, etc. small and complicated and still mobile enough to emulate a living brain while fitting inside Mustachio. The engineering is simply impossible.
The problem with that point is that you think only a living (human-like) brain or an emulation thereof is the only way to achieve sentience, even if you have no idea how sentience is achieved or maintained in the first place. There is nothing to support the assumption that any level of complexity is necessary for any of that. How do you know that you can’t make a self-aware construct by, say, inserting a matchstick into cottage cheese in a specific way? In fact, pretty much anything you ever did could have created a sentient creature that unfortunately lacks any means to express itself.
TL;DR: We have no idea what makes something self-aware, so we shouldn’t make assumptions about it.
By that logic a brick could be sentient; unless you can prove that it isn’t, of course?
That kind of argument from ignorance deserves nothing but contempt.
I think that was the point, even if I was stretching the logic to the point of absurdity for a while there: construction should not be a basis for determining sentience. If a brick started talking to you, and you found the logic in its speech to be consistent, why would you not consider it a person? Oh, and there’s no reason to require you to prove that something isn’t sentient when it’s not showing any sign of it.
I never really bought the “Chinese room” argument because to me as long as it is indistinguishable from sentience, then it is sentient and that’s that. Maybe the man in the room can’t translate Chinese but the whole system room+rules+man can, and that’s all I care about.
If one managed to prove that we have a “soul” that would change the debate of course, but I don’t believe in that so I don’t see the difference between intelligence and a “simulation” good enough to fool anyone.
I guess it depends on the definition of “soul”, not all of them would invalidate that. I mean… Suppose someone makes an exact copy of your body right in front of you, brain and all. The guy would be completely sure he’s you, would have all of your memories, yada yada yada. And yet… that guy would be a different person. You would be looking at him from outside his body, his thought processes wouldn’t be running trough your head. Even through you brains are (or were just a second ago) the exact same, there is still something that differentiates you and him. What is it? Might as well call it “soul”.
There’s two possibilities here: either you think that you have a soul and not the copy, in which case I disagree (how would you even know that you are not the copy ?), or you think that both have a soul but they’re not the same, though I don’t see why we can’t just differentiate on experience since the copy, we don’t need a “soul” for that.
“you think that both have a soul but they’re not the same” -> Yes, that.
“why we can’t just differentiate on experience since the copy” -> The thing is, there was a moment, however short it may have been, when the brain was exactly the same. There wasn’t any difference in experiences, but you were still distinct entities. The latter differences in experience derive from that (you can’t have different experiences than yourself, after all).
Except that there wouldn’t ever be a state in which they were identical.
Macro-scale physics is deterministic. The only way real-world science can support the idea of will is if it is a quantum mechanical effect.
Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle says A) the exact state of the original cannot be determined, and B) the act of making the copy will change the state of the original.
The copy will never have been an actual copy, only a vague facsimile, and by the time that facsimile exists the original has also been irrevocably altered.
I thought of this yesterday at about 11, so I don’t think anyone saw it, and this isn’t refuting my idea. There are mad social scientists in the Narboniverse. He sn’t speaking with the mad font yet, but is it possible we’re seeing the other unhinged genius scientist in this comic begin to go mad? Is it possible that’s why Gavotte recruited him and did this on purpose?
I wouldn’t be so sure. Tip’s already shown some superhuman psychological talent, in his ridiculously successful seduction acts. If he were a normal human being, even a ridiculously attractive one, he’d still get turned down more than once or twice.
I was convinced for a while that “The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day” must be from a song, since it’d sound so damn good sung by a barbershop quartet. It’s a children’s book. Of course it’s a children’s book. Question is, who gets to be Alexander?
Maybe Gavotte told him that he is the one to deliver the files to the basement or something like that. In that case, I wouldn’t blame him if he’s snapped.
I’m not sure where this “Tip is going crazy” stuff is coming from: he’s just pissed off and trolling people. He’s surely heard much worse about his stylistic choices in the past.
That seems more likely, although the idea that Tip is latent Mad doesn’t offend nearly so much as the constant rabbiting on about Ginny being Mad whenever she does anything even slightly unusual. He actually has done the requisite impossible things that are the chief symptom of Madness in the Narbonic universe.
Maybe Tip’s task was to thoroughly confuse the whole team in a manner specifically catered to each of them. Hence attacking Chris’s manliness (again, as he put him through some makeovers a while back), and going for the classic Star Trek “barrage of illogical behavior against a logical machine” technique.
“Mindless fashion plate” does sum up Tip rather aptly at the moment.
His concern for makeup and crappy clothing has topped his survival instinct… and that is the point where you know a character has become truly flanderised.
This rampage is going to be fabulous.
I concur.
Quite. Nothing quite like a psychologist on a rampage to drive others mad. It will be glorious. (i hope)
If he’s rampaging, does that mean Tip is a creation of Mad Science?
You don’t have to be the creation of mad science to go on a rampage, but it helps.
Gonna Facebook that quote, with credit to you.
He’s human – if he goes on a rampage, a better question might be, is he going Mad?
The world needs more Mad Social Scientists.
I agree completely Jude. mustachio is in an infinite loop right now, which is pretty much catatonia If you are a Ferro American. if Tip Is in fact going mad This will not end well.
Yesterday I thought that, whatever this was, it was Gavotte’s idea of the opposite of a team-building exercise, but now I’m not so sure.
Tip has become assimilated? o_O
Yeah CRHIST, don’t forget his other character trait: sociopathy!
This can only end well. ^_^
A bit off-topic, but as Mustachio struggles to avoid a Star Trek robot-type meltdown, I find myself wondering what it would be like to be in his metaphorical shoes: to know that your self-awareness is sustained by structures (gears, steam, wax cylinders, etc.) that by any _non-mad_ science shouldn’t be anywhere near capable of doing so. I do, for his sake, hope the existential creepy-crawlies are beyond his capabilities.
…in that light, how much consideration have you given to the nature of human consciousness?
Now that’s a thought that’s going to fester.
@BMunro: He probably finds himself wondering what it would be like to be in your metaphorical shoes: to know that your self-awareness is sustained by structures (electricity, fat, blood, etc.) that by any _non-mad_ science shouldn’t be anywhere near capable of doing so (wait, when did “any _non-mad_ science” become capable of even explaining self-awareness, let alone sustain it?)
Bad analogy. The brain is a fantastically complex object, as anyone with even a smattering of either mad or regular science should be aware of. And really, 1850s hardware shouldn’t be able to support basic cognition, let alone self-awareness.
(Of course, it’s quite possible Mustachio is actually a Chinese Room. And perhaps you are, too. 🙂 )
And on the gripping hand, perhaps Mustachio really considers the distinction between mad and regular science irrelevant…
I don’t think you get the point. No matter how complex it is, as far as regular science can tell, a structure made of what your brain is made of shouldn’t be able to support basic cognition, let alone self-awareness either.
I really don’t understand what your are talking about here.
Or perhaps you did not get my initial point: I am not arguing that the problem is a brain made of metal rather than meat, but that you can’t build a set of steam-propelled gears, levers, etc. small and complicated and still mobile enough to emulate a living brain while fitting inside Mustachio. The engineering is simply impossible.
The problem with that point is that you think only a living (human-like) brain or an emulation thereof is the only way to achieve sentience, even if you have no idea how sentience is achieved or maintained in the first place. There is nothing to support the assumption that any level of complexity is necessary for any of that. How do you know that you can’t make a self-aware construct by, say, inserting a matchstick into cottage cheese in a specific way? In fact, pretty much anything you ever did could have created a sentient creature that unfortunately lacks any means to express itself.
TL;DR: We have no idea what makes something self-aware, so we shouldn’t make assumptions about it.
By that logic a brick could be sentient; unless you can prove that it isn’t, of course?
That kind of argument from ignorance deserves nothing but contempt.
I think that was the point, even if I was stretching the logic to the point of absurdity for a while there: construction should not be a basis for determining sentience. If a brick started talking to you, and you found the logic in its speech to be consistent, why would you not consider it a person? Oh, and there’s no reason to require you to prove that something isn’t sentient when it’s not showing any sign of it.
I never really bought the “Chinese room” argument because to me as long as it is indistinguishable from sentience, then it is sentient and that’s that. Maybe the man in the room can’t translate Chinese but the whole system room+rules+man can, and that’s all I care about.
If one managed to prove that we have a “soul” that would change the debate of course, but I don’t believe in that so I don’t see the difference between intelligence and a “simulation” good enough to fool anyone.
I guess it depends on the definition of “soul”, not all of them would invalidate that. I mean… Suppose someone makes an exact copy of your body right in front of you, brain and all. The guy would be completely sure he’s you, would have all of your memories, yada yada yada. And yet… that guy would be a different person. You would be looking at him from outside his body, his thought processes wouldn’t be running trough your head. Even through you brains are (or were just a second ago) the exact same, there is still something that differentiates you and him. What is it? Might as well call it “soul”.
There’s two possibilities here: either you think that you have a soul and not the copy, in which case I disagree (how would you even know that you are not the copy ?), or you think that both have a soul but they’re not the same, though I don’t see why we can’t just differentiate on experience since the copy, we don’t need a “soul” for that.
“you think that both have a soul but they’re not the same” -> Yes, that.
“why we can’t just differentiate on experience since the copy” -> The thing is, there was a moment, however short it may have been, when the brain was exactly the same. There wasn’t any difference in experiences, but you were still distinct entities. The latter differences in experience derive from that (you can’t have different experiences than yourself, after all).
Except that there wouldn’t ever be a state in which they were identical.
Macro-scale physics is deterministic. The only way real-world science can support the idea of will is if it is a quantum mechanical effect.
Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle says A) the exact state of the original cannot be determined, and B) the act of making the copy will change the state of the original.
The copy will never have been an actual copy, only a vague facsimile, and by the time that facsimile exists the original has also been irrevocably altered.
That argument is complete bullshit that simply assumes the existence of a soul to prove that you have a soul. Classic circular logic.
Just what is it in that water Bubbles dispenses?
Maybe Unity is leaking into Bubble during their kisses?
I thought of this yesterday at about 11, so I don’t think anyone saw it, and this isn’t refuting my idea. There are mad social scientists in the Narboniverse. He sn’t speaking with the mad font yet, but is it possible we’re seeing the other unhinged genius scientist in this comic begin to go mad? Is it possible that’s why Gavotte recruited him and did this on purpose?
You might be right, but I don’t see any of Shaenon’s usual visual clues.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Tip’s already shown some superhuman psychological talent, in his ridiculously successful seduction acts. If he were a normal human being, even a ridiculously attractive one, he’d still get turned down more than once or twice.
I think Tip’s just pissed off at being underrated, and therefore is being passive-aggressively snarky.
But maybe that’s his task: “act however you are expected to act”.
I know I should be worried, but Tip just looks so goshdarned cute in this. Also, it’s sweet to see Moustachio trying to help his friend robot-style.
I was convinced for a while that “The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day” must be from a song, since it’d sound so damn good sung by a barbershop quartet. It’s a children’s book. Of course it’s a children’s book. Question is, who gets to be Alexander?
It’s always a children’s book. I’ve got a list somewhere.
So this is what Shaenon is going to teach her offspring?
I certainly hope so!
My kids were allowed to read my copy of Alexander & the THNGVBD
but it was always returned to MY bookshelf.
it can only get worse, can’t it?
Maybe Gavotte told him that he is the one to deliver the files to the basement or something like that. In that case, I wouldn’t blame him if he’s snapped.
Mustachio is performing error handling like a champ! He’s recognizing Tip’s error condition and not freezing up on the recursion.
I’m not sure where this “Tip is going crazy” stuff is coming from: he’s just pissed off and trolling people. He’s surely heard much worse about his stylistic choices in the past.
That seems more likely, although the idea that Tip is latent Mad doesn’t offend nearly so much as the constant rabbiting on about Ginny being Mad whenever she does anything even slightly unusual. He actually has done the requisite impossible things that are the chief symptom of Madness in the Narbonic universe.
What impossible things, pray tell, has Tip done that are symptomatic of Mad Genius?
Maybe Tip’s task was to thoroughly confuse the whole team in a manner specifically catered to each of them. Hence attacking Chris’s manliness (again, as he put him through some makeovers a while back), and going for the classic Star Trek “barrage of illogical behavior against a logical machine” technique.
On the horizon, the clouds grow thick and grey.
Thunder rolls in the distance.
Animals raise their heads, scenting the air, only to hurry to their dens and burrows.
The wise read the signs, and seek shelter from the oncoming storm.
I have had one of THOSE days. I actually wrote this in the morning, then forgot to post it before I went to work. The day did not get better.
(TUNE: “All I Know”, Art Garfunkel)
I serve you!
You ask me,
If I lie facetiously?
How could that be?
I’m just a toy!
Serving all is my only joy!
No, I won’t admit … if I’m using wit!
M’s confused, in a loop that’s infinite!
Now will he blow a fuse? Will he have a fit?
Just what Tip is up to isn’t clear …
What will he accomplish here?
Is he sincere,
Or is this a ploy?
Serving all is his only joy!
“Mindless fashion plate” does sum up Tip rather aptly at the moment.
His concern for makeup and crappy clothing has topped his survival instinct… and that is the point where you know a character has become truly flanderised.
Ohh, them’s fighting words, mate.