Let me tell you about a word English used to have: “ye”. It was a handy pronoun, and it was used as a second person plural. “You” was the singular. Anyone with siblings can tell you about problems between singular and plural usage of “you”. Gradually, “ye” died out. In the American South, however, a new word was born to take its place. “Y’all” actually holds closer to a more complete English than one with just “you”.
This is way late, but I’m a bit overly interested in the history of pronouns. Most of that is correct, except for the bit specifically about “you”: back when “ye” was the second person plural, “you” was plural alongside it. In fact, the distinction between “ye” and “you” was more like that between “he” and “him”; the singular was “thou”/”thee”. Eventually, “you” went from being a strict plural to occasionally being singular when referring to someone with a high social status (as opposed to “thou” for informal settings – think of the royal “we”), to being further generalized across the entire second-person range (with “ye” disappearing separately). I love pointing out to people how “you” still puts verbs into the plural form and seeing the gears clicking into place. And I do definitely use that history heavily in arguing for the singular “they.”
But, yeah, the gist of that comment is correct — English did originally have separate singular and plural forms of the second person pronoun but (in most places) lost the distinction, and various dialects have come up with other means of recreating it since. “Y’all” (as it’s used in the comic; I’m leaving out “all y’all” for now) is just a contracted form of “you all” which is just as valid as something like “you guys,” which I’m guessing even SotiCoto doesn’t have a problem with. Maybe even more valid, given that that’s practically the only place “guys” has a gender-neutral meaning. Of course you’re free to not use it or not yourself (I’m actually training myself to use it, because of that non-genderedness), but if you complain about other people doing so, you may as well complain about them contracting “and” to a single “n.”
Sorry. My feelings on this are out of proportion to its actual importance.
but if you complain about other people doing so, you may as well complain about them contracting “and” to a single “n.”
If you complain about people saying “y’all”, you may as well complain about people contracting “cannot” to “can’t”. Every English-speaking country — and I assume every non-English-speaking country as well — has regionalisms and colloquialisms that develop for an infinite number of reasons.
Your detailed explanation on the history of pronouns is far more educational than the OP deserved, and to be quite frank, they probably ignored the whole thing because it was more than one sentence long.
Unless you are also arguing “I” is plural, “you” doesn’t put words into “the plural” it puts them into the “non third person singular present” conjugation. It is kinda how that specific arrangement is the exception in modern English. As for singular they, I am of the mind we should invent another word, along with another explicitly singular you, to make things easier to parse.
Hey, now, not every grammar snob is complaining. I didn’t say a thing about 2-11’s strip having “mon ange” (masculine) instead of “ma ange” (feminine) when the talking Cajun cypress was addressing a female dog.
Then again, the writer, the artist, and I are all American, et tout le mond sait les Americains ne parler _jamais_ tout lange mais Anglais, n’est-ce pas? -_^
‘Mon ange’ is definitely correct. ‘Ange’ is a masculine noun, irrespective of whom it is used to describe, and in any case, ‘mon’ is used before nouns beginning with a vowel regardless of grammatical gender for reasons of euphony.
Seriously. You need to get over this. You comment about your distaste for it every strip it appears in even when it is thematically correct. It is no worse than any other regional dialect that mangles words that the rest of us don’t use. People don’t speak proper English. They speak the way the people around them speak to convey their meaning as quickly and as efficiently as possible. IFKWIM.
Grrrrr…
Even TREES are saying “y’all” now?!
People down south say that, yeah.
At least no-one’s said “alls y’all” yet.
Let me tell you about a word English used to have: “ye”. It was a handy pronoun, and it was used as a second person plural. “You” was the singular. Anyone with siblings can tell you about problems between singular and plural usage of “you”. Gradually, “ye” died out. In the American South, however, a new word was born to take its place. “Y’all” actually holds closer to a more complete English than one with just “you”.
This is way late, but I’m a bit overly interested in the history of pronouns. Most of that is correct, except for the bit specifically about “you”: back when “ye” was the second person plural, “you” was plural alongside it. In fact, the distinction between “ye” and “you” was more like that between “he” and “him”; the singular was “thou”/”thee”. Eventually, “you” went from being a strict plural to occasionally being singular when referring to someone with a high social status (as opposed to “thou” for informal settings – think of the royal “we”), to being further generalized across the entire second-person range (with “ye” disappearing separately). I love pointing out to people how “you” still puts verbs into the plural form and seeing the gears clicking into place. And I do definitely use that history heavily in arguing for the singular “they.”
But, yeah, the gist of that comment is correct — English did originally have separate singular and plural forms of the second person pronoun but (in most places) lost the distinction, and various dialects have come up with other means of recreating it since. “Y’all” (as it’s used in the comic; I’m leaving out “all y’all” for now) is just a contracted form of “you all” which is just as valid as something like “you guys,” which I’m guessing even SotiCoto doesn’t have a problem with. Maybe even more valid, given that that’s practically the only place “guys” has a gender-neutral meaning. Of course you’re free to not use it or not yourself (I’m actually training myself to use it, because of that non-genderedness), but if you complain about other people doing so, you may as well complain about them contracting “and” to a single “n.”
Sorry. My feelings on this are out of proportion to its actual importance.
*sincere applause*
but if you complain about other people doing so, you may as well complain about them contracting “and” to a single “n.”
If you complain about people saying “y’all”, you may as well complain about people contracting “cannot” to “can’t”. Every English-speaking country — and I assume every non-English-speaking country as well — has regionalisms and colloquialisms that develop for an infinite number of reasons.
Your detailed explanation on the history of pronouns is far more educational than the OP deserved, and to be quite frank, they probably ignored the whole thing because it was more than one sentence long.
Unless you are also arguing “I” is plural, “you” doesn’t put words into “the plural” it puts them into the “non third person singular present” conjugation. It is kinda how that specific arrangement is the exception in modern English. As for singular they, I am of the mind we should invent another word, along with another explicitly singular you, to make things easier to parse.
All Y’all grammar snobs need to chill out.
Hey, now, not every grammar snob is complaining. I didn’t say a thing about 2-11’s strip having “mon ange” (masculine) instead of “ma ange” (feminine) when the talking Cajun cypress was addressing a female dog.
Then again, the writer, the artist, and I are all American, et tout le mond sait les Americains ne parler _jamais_ tout lange mais Anglais, n’est-ce pas? -_^
‘Mon ange’ is definitely correct. ‘Ange’ is a masculine noun, irrespective of whom it is used to describe, and in any case, ‘mon’ is used before nouns beginning with a vowel regardless of grammatical gender for reasons of euphony.
Seriously. You need to get over this. You comment about your distaste for it every strip it appears in even when it is thematically correct. It is no worse than any other regional dialect that mangles words that the rest of us don’t use. People don’t speak proper English. They speak the way the people around them speak to convey their meaning as quickly and as efficiently as possible. IFKWIM.